DAMIAN WAYLING INTERVIEW

Damian is a writer whom I first met when he was on the Carlton new writers course some years ago. It was clear then that he had real talent – a highly original, distinctive voice, and strong story-telling instinct. He has gone on to have the success his talents and dedication deserve and here are his thoughts on various matters connected to screenwriting…

Why did you want to write for the screen originally? What films \ TV shows inspired you?

I wanted to write for the screen because… I’m not sure I know. I loved the dialogue heavy films of Billy Wilder, all those sharp pulp-noir movies, and Preston Sturges and Ben Hecht screwball comedies – so I suppose I wanted to write that kind of crackling dialogue delivered by smart people. I still do, but now I also know that the most powerful moments in movies usually have no dialogue.

How did you get into the TV drama business?

By degrees. I worked as a graphic designer doing record sleeves for pop bands before getting a job working on a TV show. The show was Network 7 – a youth current-affairs show produced by Janet Street-Porter. Lots of people in TV started there. One of them, Eric Harwood, formed a documentary company and my first writing work was on programme proposals for him. Then he was surprised to find himself a producer on a TV drama for Channel Television. It was set on Jersey – lots of kids arrive and get jobs for the summer. The scripts were by a very experienced Coronation Street writer and were very bad. Lots of Famous Five style plotting. Eric knew I was ‘trying to write’ and asked me to help him rewrite them. We locked ourselves in a room and produced six half-hours in about three weeks. The Exec Producer weighed them in his hand and said ‘yeah, they feel about right’. What we wrote got shot, and that’s the way I thought it went. It’s never happened that way since. One of the cast was Tom Ward in his first role. I’m currently writing for him on Silent Witness.
After that I found an agent, who I still have. There were a number of false starts on shows like Casualty and Peak Practice before I finally got my first screen credit on The Bill.

What sort of shows have you worked on?

Lots of crime shows – The Bill, Waking The Dead, Trial & Retribution, Silent Witness. I suppose you get known for something and get approached for more of the same. But that’s ok, crime shows are not really about crime they’re about the things that led to the crime: love, hate, revenge, fear, lust, greed – all the universals.

What have been your most enjoyable shows to work on and why?

More recently I’ve done more non-crime scripts. One was for a BBC series that was about to be made when the US co-production money fell away. It’s a contemporary remake of Vanity Fair. Nobody gets murdered and it was a pleasure to write. It was a semi-adaptation and there was always the book to lean on when things got tricky. I hope it will get made. Another is Garrow’s Law – an 18th century legal drama. It’s ‘law’ rather than ‘crime’ and the legal and period language was a pleasure to play with. The story was based on an actual treason trial and there were hundreds of pages of transcript to read. I think I managed to do it justice, fit in a B story and keep the love interest going – all in a fifty-seven minute script!

What scripts are you proudest of and why?

The Garrow’s law script came out pretty well. There were three writers on the series and we were all cautioned by a very good script executive, Hilary Norrish, to be careful not to write ‘period drama scenes’. An excellent warning.
I also developed a project some time ago with a producer who has since become a friend. The notion was ‘the English MASH’ set in 1940 when it seemed inevitable that German troops would sweep across the Channel. Lots of the country houses of England were requisitioned and turned into Emergency Medical Services Hospitals. The lady of the house would look after the interests of the nursing staff, the army would run the place and between them treat the flow of wounded.
It’s a period that’s always interested me and I did a lot reading before sitting down to write a pilot episode. It came out very well and it always gets a very positive response when it’s sent out as a writing sample. Nobody’s yet done anything so rash as say they want to make the series!

What have you been working on most recently and what are you working on next?

Currently writing for Silent Witness. It’s a death in custody story and has a go at the IPCC. After that I have to write a draft of a film script that I seem to have been working on since I was a teenager. It’s a revenge thriller with a backstory set twenty years ago. It’s been picked up more times than Amy Winehouse. I’m swapping lots of emails with the producers about the ending, but it’s a great story and the script is in the best shape it’s ever been – so I will deliver the best draft I can and they’ll go out and try and sell it.
Apart from that I’m trying to get ‘a number of original projects’ made.

What advice would you have for budding writers starting out in the business now?

Be patient, but not too patient. Remember you’re involved in a trade – you’re trading what you can do – write – for what the producer has – money. That should put you on an equal footing. Don’t walk away from a script meeting with a story you’re not excited by. Don’t assume your script editor is either always right or always wrong.

Is it important to have a good agent? What qualities should you look for in an agent?

Yes it is, but the problem is defining ‘good’. I only have experience of my agent, who is terrific, and stories from other writers about theirs. I’m with a relatively small agency and quite happy about that. I would worry about getting lost in the list in some of the bigger outfits.

What qualities do you need to succeed as a writer in TV drama?

Hmmm. An absence of preciousness about your scripts is a good start. Build them with love and care, but be prepared to rebuild them – a lot.
An ability to empathise with all the characters in your stories – even, possibly especially, the bad guys, losers and monsters.
I know some very sociable people who are successful screenwriters, but not many. My appetite for socialising is satisfied fairly easily. Which is just as well because the job involves spending long hours in your own company. I envy writing teams, but don’t think I could make that work.
If you have curiosity you’ll find story possibilities in lots of places.
You need persistence in the face of apparently irrational and ill-considered rejection.
An enthusiasm for watching good TV drama.
Some talent…

Philip Shelley
script-consultant.co.uk
Oct 7th 2009

TERRY CAFOLLA is one of the most talented screenwriters working in British TV drama today. As you’ll see from this interview, his talent is driven by a passion for his craft, and the awareness that as a writer you never stop learning. I first met Terry when he was on the Carlton screenwriters course. We worked together on a wonderful crime drama script set in Belfast, and he has since gone onto have the successful career he deserves, with credits on shows such as  Messiah and the new UK version of  Law & Order, which will be hitting our screens shortly. There are many gems in this interview for budding and more experienced screenwriters. Enjoy!

- What inspired you? How did you first get into screen-writing?

Television has always been a massive part of my life. As a kid I remember watching shows like Roots, The JFK story. Star Trek. The Rockford Files, Rockcliff’s Babies. The Twilight Zone. My folks had great taste. But the telly in the corner wasn’t on constantly – everything in my house was appointment TV, so TV felt special.

Growing up, writing for TV never seemed an option for somebody from Armagh. Writing seemed a bit alien to honest. I began by writing poetry. Short lines. Short thoughts. That’s me all over. This really, I mean really bad poetry coincided around the time that shows like NYPD Blue and Homicide started on telly here. American TV drama was what I fell in love with and it was the American shows I turned to to learn from …. Previously I had always been a viewer, those shows made me want to write for them. NYPD could bring me to floods of tears. I remember thinking – I want to be able to move people like that. These were the first shows that felt authentic about life to me. Those shows opened my eyes to other home grown drama such as Cops, The Grass Arena and Cracker.

- Where \ How did you learn the craft of screen-writing?

Well first off, to go all writerly and picky on you, I still haven’t learnt the craft of screenwriting, (a few directors and editors will nod vigorously in agreement) Learning is an ongoing process. I’m still learning and probably always will be. The trick is to work with people better than yourself, so that you push yourself. I’ve been doing this as a job now for a few years and still got the best bit of advice I ever had from a writer just a few months ago – drama is light and darkness, and the darkness has to be earned. I started learning by watching TV. Studying it and then trying to apply what I learnt across to my own writing. Structure is my god. Still is. In particular the American TV one hour format. Even now the thought of writing 90 mins or 120 scares the crap out of me. But 12-15 mins per act leading to reveal/twist, that I can just about do.

OK I’m going to sound like a real nerd now and badly in need of a life, but this is what I did and this is what I still do on a regular basis. I watch an episode of something I enjoy, I break it down scene by scene, then within the scene, I break it down beat by beat. I do an outline based on it. I write up an outline as though I’d written it. It’s not procrastination its work – honest. When I like a show I break it down to see how it works, what choices were made.

- What advice can you give writers starting out about learning the craft?

As well as the answer to the previous question, watch TV. Listen to commentaries. Joss Whedon. David Milch. David Simon. Tim Minear. Jane Espenson. David Chase. Go listen to their commentaries. Read the scripts. There are websites where you can download the original scripts. Why they make the choices they did? Second, write as often as you can. Rewrite more. Then repeat.

- How did you first break into film \ television? What were your first experiences of contact with industry professionals?

My first contact with telly people was the Carlton TV screenwriting course. They had asked for an original or theatre piece. I decided to do a spec NYPD Blue script. I never liked the theatre, still don’t (sorry – but I’d much rather watch telly) The course asked for an original piece and I thought, I’m going to be writing others peoples’ voices for telly, I might as well write something for telly. What’s the worst that could happen? I was called over for an interview. Which was my first lesson. Don’t automatically think you have to give people what they ask for. Give them passion on the page and let the writing speak for itself. Everybody on the course was friendly and it was a huge learning experience for me. Even meeting people from TV and seeing that they took my writing seriously was a big boost.

- How do you feel about the whole process of redrafting, responding to notes?

If you can’t respond to people giving you notes on your outlines and scripts, then this job isn’t for you. TV is far more about rewriting than writing. I rewrite my own script over and over before I hand it to a script editor or producer. Then they give me notes. The thing is not to sit slavish and try to do everything they say. Often times the suggested solution is really about identifying that there’s a problem in the scene, or sequence and if you can go away and figure out how to solve it differently, all the better. Listen, make notes, if you have a solution there and then, speak up otherwise go away and think about it. I have to mull things over and try different things before I find my solutions. I’ve sat in a room with the writers on Law and Order though and every time there’s a problem, one of them will come up with the perfect solution on the spot. It’s quite annoying!!

- What is your experience of working with script editors, producers, directors, executive producers etc?

Television is just like any other job. There are people who are good at their jobs and people who aren’t. I’ve been lucky that when I had to make my break into telly, I was working with good people. The best people tend to be the nicest. And if you can work on the show where the showrunner is a writer, you’re off to a flying start. They know the problems you face, they’ve faced them a thousand times. They fight the same writer battles as you do whether that’s the fear of the blank page or by starting an unexpected phone message by assuring you there’s nothing wrong (writers always expect the worst!)

- How did you get an agent? What does your agent do for you? What should a writer look for in an agent? What expectations should a writer have of their agent?

As a writer, getting an agent should be the last thing on your list. Weirdly you don’t get an agent, they get you, and the way that happens is to write two or three scripts that are the best that you could make them. They should be able to be filmed tomorrow and the only way that happens is to write constantly and rewrite even more . My script from the Carlton course was passed on to an agent.

Agents will try to find you work, especially when you first sign, they’ll send your scripts out and arrange meetings and get you through the door. But getting the job is down to you. With my agent, I’ll go back and let her know if I want anything from her, she’ll get in touch and let me know if someone has been asking whether I’m interested in writing for a particular show.

As an example, I read somewhere that there was a chance of a new series of Law and Order based in the UK. I’ve always been interested in American cop shows so I asked my agent where to go with it. She found out who was involved and got me a meeting. But I had to ask her to do it – she wouldn’t have known I’d want to write for a series. Did she get me the job?? Yes and no. I had to go and meet the exec producers and explain why I should be one of the writers. I love the original and I presume that came across in the meetings.

The agent-writer relationship is like any other relationship, in my experience there’s no one model. Some agents read their clients scripts and give feedback, others don’t, the bottom line is that they are there when you’re in trouble or need help. They’ll deal with all the negotiation about fees and contracts that writers don’t have the skill or the confidence to sort out. My biggest advice when it comes to agents is not to expect them to be mind readers. If you want something from them, ask. The other thing to remember is that you are one of many clients so don’t impose too much on their time.

- Can I ask about money? Do you earn well? Was it hard to make the decision to give up your previous job and commit to writing fulltime? What advice do you give new writers about making this step?

This year, I’m making a comfortable living and will hopefully be able to pay off a chunk of my mortgage and treat myself to a new imac. But last year I barely made enough to scrape by and we survived mostly on my partner’s wage. Money comes in chunks – the outline, the first draft, the acceptance fee and best of all the principal photography fee when something is actually made. Some companies stump up straight away, others will keep you waiting for months. I’m still learning how to manage this. My biggest advice is to always keep something for a dry spell – I never want to be in a position of having to write something just for the money. And to remember you will have to pay income tax so put something aside for this as soon as you get paid!

Personally I’m not a big risk taker and I didn’t leave full time work till I knew I had a commission under my belt and my partner had a permanent job so the mortgage would get paid for a year. If things hadn’t worked out within that year I’d have had to reconsider. I don’t know if I can offer advice to anyone on this, I think you have to figure out what’s right for you.

- What have you learnt over your professional experiences, script commissions? What do you do differently now to when you started writing?

I have never done a job for money. It’s as simple as that. That’s not being snobby. It’s just I don’t want to wake up 3 months into script and not have the passion to go back to the computer screen. I’ve spent time on projects that in the middle of researching I suddenly realize, actually, this isn’t for me. Which is difficult for the people who’ve asked me to look at stuff. But I’d rather walk now than turn in a crap script. When all is said and done all you have to sell is your writing, and you as person who is either easy to work with or is a pain in the neck. I worry about the writing first and foremost.

- What do you do differently now to when you started writing?

Oh don’t get me started. I drive my partner mad with this. I do a thousand things the same and a thousand things differently. I’m so superstitious it is stupid. I’ll use the same types of pen and pads. The same whiteboard markers. If I’m working on two scripts I’ll work in different rooms to get a different head space. What’s the point of that – its all in my head?? Literally and metaphorically. I also love the noise of coffee shops – it becomes wall paper. People complain about the music but I really can’t hear it. I’ll have different coffee shops for different stages. One for thinking, one for outlining, one for writing. Same in the house. My office, the kitchen, the telly room, all have different jobs. I’ll compile a play list. I’ll listen to sad music as I’m writing sad scenes, fast music as I’m writing action scenes. The list is endless and gets more and more ridiculous.

- Do you often have more than one project on the go? How do you find juggling more than one project at a time?

I would say that this has been the hardest thing for me to learn and it is still something that I feel I have yet to fully get the hang of. It’s not bad when I’m moving between outlines on different projects I can spend a morning on one and move onto another in the afternoon. The problem for me is when I hit script stage. I focus to the detriment of everything else – bathing included. I think for me it all goes back to when I started writing I would work on one piece until I thought it was finished before moving on to the next script. This has been my hardest habit to break. I get so involved in the one piece of work, the rest suffers. At first I tried dividing up my projects into days. 3 days on one and 3 on the next, but that didn’t work for me. If I’m working on several projects I allow ideally a fortnight but definitely a week. I envy people who can move from project to project without any loss of quality.

- What advice would you give to writers starting out now?

I’m biased. But I’d say first and foremost, if you don’t love TV, you shouldn’t be working in it. I get annoyed with people who use TV to pay the bills while they work on their films, or walk off a script after they’ve done their requisite drafts and notes. I believe that TV is the best medium for telling stories and I want to work with people who feel the same away about it. Not somebody who treats it as a poor cousin.

I would say to get that first credit you have to do anything. You’ll work your bollocks of and learn loads. This is a job and it is hard work. You have to write, rewrite and rewrite again. If you believe that you’re a natural genius and your first draft will be enough, you’ll be disillusioned. In fact these are the people who you find complaining at writing groups about how producers wouldn’t know talent if it bit them. If you love TV. If you watch it all the time, if you study writing, if you rewrite and rewrite until your work is good enough, you will get found. Good writing always finds its way. Spend time on your scripts, spend time on the craft instead of complaining that people just don’t get your work or worrying about getting an agent. Apparently Dick Wolf has a sign on his desk that says – It’s the writing stupid. Couldn’t agree more.

- What tips do you have for writers trying to sell new ideas and scripts?

Personally I think if you’re a new writer, don’t try to sell new ideas. Get some time under your belt working with people on things they are passionate about and write on your new ideas in your own time. Realistically in TV now you are a lot more likely to get paid to write something that someone else has brought to the table, especially in the early days. But I’d also say choose what you write carefully, make sure there’s something there you can care about passionately or you won’t be able to do a good script. It might be writing on a long running series or it might be writing a one off script that someone else has already had green lit. But the first credit is vital to proving that you can cut it in TV so care about it.

It’s unlikely that you as a new writer will be given a series. Unlikely but not impossible. Of course, I still haven’t had an original series commissioned – so maybe I’m going about it the wrong way!!! But I trust my writing that something will get made one day, BUT as I said, what people say they want might not be what they want, so don’t stop trying.

- What tips do you have for writers to survive and flourish in the industry?

Someone once told me there are two approaches to writing for TV.  You’re either an architect or a builder.  That’s the line I take.  I take both seriously.  If I’m writing on someone else’s show, my job is to help realise the producer or the showrunner’s vision of their show, my job is to make life as easy as possible for them, by giving them a script that is as close as possible to what they want.   Yes there will be creative differences, you make your points, have your say, but at the end of the day, it’s their show.    TV is a team effort.  And I have to find a balance between being a team player and fighting for something in the script that I feel passionate about.    There will always come a point when there is one thing that you will feel can’t be taken from the script.  It’s never dialogue for me, it’s always something to do with theme, or a choice made by a character.  I’ve had to learn to listen carefully to what people are saying to figure out the problem they are trying to identify.  And to ask for time to think about an issue raised, so I can let it settle with me and see whether my concerns are justified.   I’ve been lucky that I’ve worked with some great people who have really helped me with this.  The bottom line is everybody is trying to make the script as good as possible, make the story as tight as possible, and make the characters believable.

Many thanks to Terry for taking time out of his intense writing schedule to do this interview.

CERI MEYRICK is a producer \ script editor with whom I worked at Carlton  TV Drama. Ceri now runs, with John Yorke, the BBC Writers Academy. Here are some answers to questions you may have about BBC Drama in general and the Writers Academy in particular. If you have any questions about the BBC Writers Academy not answered here, let me know and I can forward them to Ceri, and post them here at a later date.

Who are you and what is your experience / background in the business? What are your favourite TV shows / films? And why?

I started my career as a radio trainee for BBC Wales. Since moving to television, have worked as a Script Editor, Producer and Development Exec for the BBC, ITV, various independents, as well as RTE in Ireland. I’ve worked a lot with new writers (with Philip Shelley on the Carlton writers course, for instance) and on series, serials as well as single films.

TV- um- recently-ish – The Street, The Wire, The West Wing, Gavin & Stacey, Holby – when they separated the twins (sob), Spooks, Life on Mars, Battlestar Galatica, Doctor Who – anything with heart really.

Favourite Film – Some Like it Hot – need I say more?

How did you get involved in the writers academy?

I was offered the job of running it when it was in its second year. Didn’t know much about it, but as it meant working with eight new writers every year, I jumped at the chance. It is the most brilliant job and I love it.

How does the writers academy work? What is the process by which writers get chosen for it? How do you find the writers? Is there a link on the BBC website about it?

We advertise for writers to apply – to fill out an application form and submit an original piece of work.  Look out for the ads in Media Guardian, The Stage, Broadcast and on the BBC Jobs Website. There’s also information year round about us (including writers blogs and interviews) on the BBC Writersroom website.

Entry requirements are at least one professional drama commisison – either in TV, radio, theatre or film.

We got about 500 entries this year. Scripts are put through a first sift during which I and a team of readers read the first ten pages of each script – either pass through for a full read or reject. Those that make it through (around 200) are then given two full reads by members of the drama department. We then shortlist that down to thirty people, who I workshop for a day. From there we choose 15 to interview, with a panel consisting of all four Executive Producers from Doctors, Holby, Casualty and EastEnders, John Yorke (Controller of Drama ) and me. We choose eight writers for the course. The whole process takes two and a half months. It’s very thorough, and has to be as I’m always worried a really good piece of work might slip through the net.

What is the profile of the writers you are looking for? What qualities do you look for in the writers you choose?

Above all we’re looking for writers with a strong original voice. It’s not a writers course in the sense that we’re teaching anyone to write – they will already be able to do that better than most. We’re teaching them to free up their voice and use it to create something strong and original within Continuing Drama. They don’t need to be experienced television writers – several theatre and radio writers have done very well on the course. They need to be able to write very strong dialogue, with believable characters, be able to write emotion on the page, and have stories to tell.

What about the good writers who don’t quite make it? Are there any other BBC possibilities for them? What advise would you give them?

We run a mentoring scheme whereby we pair them up with a Script Editor in the Series & Serials side of the department, who will meet them and talk them through their original work. One person got a project off the ground that way last year. In Continuing Drama we also run shorter Shadow Schemes/courses for all four shows and some are given places on those. I try to keep in touch with as many of those shortlisted as possible, and encourage them to apply again the following year. Keep trying – I’d say to them – definitely.

How does the Writers Academy work? What is the process for writers over the duration of the course?
The course itself is thirteen weeks. It consists of lectures in structure from John Yorke, detailed lectures on Continuing shows from the production teams, lectures and talks from writers, directors, producers, actors, casting directors from all over the industry (e.g. Jimmy McGovern, Tony Jordan, Alan Plater, Sarah Phelps, Dearbhla Walsh, Tony McHale, Jed Mercurio, Dominic Minghella, Paul Bradley), practical workshops in script formatting, scheduling, medical research etc… and above all, lots of practical writing exercises. They get an hour’s one-to-one tutorial every week with John Yorke and I. During those weeks they will also write two episodes of Doctors – one of which will be made.

What happens to writers when they come out the other end of the course?

After the thirteen week course, the writers will then go on to write an episode of EastEnders, Casualty and Holby which will take up most of thefollowing nine months. If they do well, they will then get more commissions from those shows. If they do well they will get more work than they can handle.

Can you give some examples of success stories of writers from the first Writers Academy courses?

Twenty four writers so far have graduated. Of those, 22 are still writing for the department, pretty much full time. One graduate from the first year – Mark Catley – is now lead writer on Casualty. 10 graduates have been put on core deals for one or more of the shows, e.g. Matt Evans and Rachel Flowerday are core writers on EastEnders. Daisy Coulam is writing the pilot for the new BBC3 teen show. Ian Kershaw is a corewriter on Holby, but is also writing for Shameless.

AND more generally…

When you read scripts by new writers \ writers you don’t know, what do you look for in a script? Generally what qualities is a script editor looking for in a writer?
To be surprised. To be moved. To be told a story. Wanting to read on to the end to see what happens. Dialogue that sparkles. Characters that you can love. To lose yourself in the script and forget where you are.

What qualities / abilities do writers need to flourish in the world of TV drama?

Self belief. Resiliance. Knowing that your vision is the most important thing. Writing what you want to write and not what you think other people want. A genuine love for television drama.

Who are the writers you rate? Why have they done so well?

Jimmy McGovern, Tony Jordan, David Simon, Aaron Sorkin, Russell T Davies, Paul Haggis. They know what they want to say and they know how to get their own way so they can say it. They know how to get you hooked on their characters so you absolutely can’t leave anything they’ve written until the end.

What are the BBC looking for?

More long running series I believe at the moment.

Could you tell new writers something about the process they will go through in terms of no. of drafts, meetings etc. on an episode of a BBC show like ‘Eastenders ’ or ‘Casualty’?

The EastEnders script process takes about six weeks. You attend a commissioning meeting with the other writers on your block where you are asked to talk about how you will write you episodes and pitch ideas based around the story document you have been given. You then go to first draft and are given notes by your Script Editor. Second draft notes are given from Script editor and Series Producer. Third draft goes to the Executive Producer, and with changes, becomes the production draft.

Thank you very much CERI!

Regards

Philip Shelley

www.script-consultant.co.uk